I was skimming through the cycling media today and saw that there is a petition making the rounds in Spain asking for the blood bags from Operation Puerto to not be destroyed as ordered by the Spanish Court. If you’d like to sign the petition, click here. I was surprised when the judge ordered the “evidence” destroyed.
Anyway, the article went on to give an example of Francisco Mancebo, who had 20 bags of blood and plasma stored there. I was aware, obviously, that Mancebo was involved in Operation Puerto, I just had no idea that he had 20 bags of blood products available for his use. That number is incredible and obviously he had spent a lot of time getting it removed from his body, hoping to use it later.
I knew that Operation Puerto was real the first day it was announced, back in 2006, and there was a mass exodus of “guilty” riders from the Tour. I knew it was real because when asked, Mancebo just said he was retiring. I thought, why would a guy just up and announce his retirement at the start of the Tour de France, if he didn’t know that he was busted? Later, he went back and denied he said that. But, lots of riders have admitted that their blood was indeed being stored, many have served their “time outs”, plus the Spanish courts have convicted the doctors now. Seems like Valverde got gipped, having been suspended for 2 years for only 1 bag while Francisco had 20 and has gotten off scot-free so far. How do you even remove 20 bags of blood/liquid from a human? Crazy.
Anyway, I ask again, why is this guy racing domestically in the US. I know that technically he can race because he isn’t currently suspended, but why is there a team in the US that pays for him to race? I ripped on Gord Frazer a few years ago when Competitive Cyclist hired him. Now I have to ask while Kenda is taking over the check writing to this guy?
Kenda puts a lot of their money into good sponsorship here domestically. I have to applaud them that they sponsor the top end of the sport both on the road and MTB. But sponsoring Fransico Mancebo does nothing but screw up the Professional domestic profession scene. One guy like him can and does change each and every race he attends.
I think Frankie Andreu is a great guy. He came out on his own, for no reason other than he was sick of lying. He did it personally and suffered the consequences. He inherited Manceno, didn’t hire him. A uncomfortable situation for sure. But, back in January, when he was asked about directing Mancebo, he said this –
“I know what Mancebo’s done in the US in terms of racing results but that’s because that’s where I’ve been directing. He’s been strong here, sometimes riding liking Superman, but other times he’s been vulnerable. He’s been up and down. The other thing I know was that he was fourth in the Tour de France [2004]. I don’t remember him from when I was racing and the first I really became aware of him was when he got fourth in the Tour. I paid more attention though since he’s been in the US.
“I know that there’s the association of his name with the Puerto documents but I don’t know enough about how direct that link is or when his name was mentioned in the documents. I don’t know. It’s not like I’ve researched the guy. He’s been with On The Rivet for three years and now he’s part of the one squad that we’re bringing together.”
Well Frankie, the graph below shows you how direct that link is, so maybe you should reconsider not being concerned about directing him?
Mancebo has won the NRC series and tons of single and stage races the last few years here in the states. Why would we, as a cycling community, want a guy like this screwing up our events. He just won the final stage of Tour of Gila last Sunday.
Obviously, Rock Racing was a joke, hiring nearly every rider they could find that used drugs to race bikes. This is where Franceso got his foot in the door to US racing. Mancebo even brought his brother-in-arms, Oscar Sevilla over to play with him for a bit, but Oscar got popped again and had to sit out for 6 months.
If our cycling community, the United States, want a clean and level playing field, then we can’t allow our sponsors to be paying riders such as Francisco to race here. Even Blanco, a Pro Tour team, isn’t racing Luis León Sánchez until he clears up his ties with the Puerto ordeal. But, we have sponsors here in the US that readily hire Mancebo, because of what? He admits, he would like to be racing in Europe, but can’t get a job. He finished 2nd last month at at UCI race in Spain. I wish he would just stay there. And he would if our teams here refused to allow him to race.
Here’s a graph from Operation Puerto and the number of blood bags attached to each athlete.
Here’s a picture of Francisco and Oscar making a joke of the Tour of Utah back in 2009.
I don’t think he’s any more dirty than any other domestic pro racer. Come on.
He’s obviously more talented than 99% of our pool of domestic stage racers doping or not.
Until he’s actually busted, let him race. If he’s still on the juice, he’ll slip up and eventually get caught. If not, he’ll keep making our glorified cat 1 pros look like little bitches at the races. He’s contesting the finishes of races against teams like Elbowz for Christ’s sake.
Macebo is taking wins away from guys who work hard and race hard like Chad Haga, Phil Gaimon, the whole Bontrager u23 team. A number of young guys close to Pro Tour quality that might have a chance at the jump in a couple of years. He’s a proven cheater, who was and is entirely unapologetic about it, I see NO reason to believe he has changed. We know that if riders want to dope, there are ways to do it without ever testing positive. (at least at the moment) Maybe he will slip up, maybe he won’t. Either way it would be nice for him to go race somewhere else.
If he were apologetic and trying to change things, being vocal about changing things I would be fine with him though. I (unlike many) do believe in second chances (but not thirds, sorry Levi).
If only you provided the same level of scrutiny for the employer of Thomas Frei, George Hincappe, Kirk OBee, etc
Bill,
The anti-doping system does not work like you, and very likely many others believe.
#1 The UCI and secondarily, the national federations have total control over results. Positive is not a problem. Just don’t open a case. Armstrong’s 2009 red-hot positive samples are proof.
#2 Tammy Thomas. USA Cycling had no problem with her growing a beard because she was on so many PED’s. Winning fixes everything. You gotta win though.
#3 Again, under Thom Wiesel’s leadership, USA Cycling Development Fund has delivered how many admitted dopers? The executive leadership at USACDF, and peripherally, USAC are okay with doping. Just win. That is not to say there are not good people further down USAC. There are well meaning folks inside that organization.
Mancebo has no fear of coming up positive because he keeps quiet, and most importantly, wins.
If the federation was committed in the tiniest bit to a legitimate game where anti-doping is enforced, it would be a very different sport than the one implemented by Thom Wiesel.
Steve,
To answer a few of your questions about mancebo and kenda, few if any involved had much choice. With the merger of kenda and CC, the CC management ( on the rivet) took over, also paco is in a multi year deal. OTR management loves him, and I don’t know why, I don’t know how they can be proud. From the kenda side anyone who had other options, left. I don’t get why usada can’t open an investigation yet, start the process. Often times choices made by domestic team management leaves me shaking my head.
You imply that it’s unfair to assume he’s doping, yet you say he and other domestic pros are dirty. You can’t play both sides of the same argument.
How do you know domestic pros are dirty? Is that only way you ever achieved any success? Is that the only way those “bitches” could be better than you?
You can’t assume he’s more talented because the source of his results are suspect. Even if he hasn’t doped in some time, the development received from doping has secondary effects that last for some time.
He’s making a mockery of domestic racing.
…sorry. I tried to reply to “Bill”
Hey, sorry but why are any of the pro’s in the peloton who have abused dope and cheated still there. Why are guys like Levi putting on grand fondo’s? Why do the sponsors continue to put money into the sport? Why do we buy these sponsors products? IMO lifetime bans for doping are the only way to cure the cancer. We have seen these deals made in the Lance case. These backdoor deals are all BS. If you admit to taking dope your out of professional competition , for life. I don’t care how much of a nice guy you are.
You are right on Channel Zero.
I don’t think it’s unfair to assume he’s not doping. I am saying that until he’s busted and handed down a suspension, let him race. With the way the Puerto thing went down, it doesn’t seem like a formal suspension will ever make him face the music. That’s life. His way of dealing with all of this is to keep his trap shut and race. There are many, many others racing who are doing that exact same thing. I’m not saying that’s the right thing to do or make any other kind of value judgment, I’m just saying that is what’s happening.
I believe that it’s naive to think that the US peloton is significantly cleaner than the Euro one. I’m saying this from the perspective of someone who’s been a cycling fan for 20 years and seen a lot. I wasn’t saying that I’m personally angry because I wanted to be a pro but got screwed over by doping. You don’t have to make a personal jab at me, I’m not doing that to you. You don’t know me, I don’t know you, and we’re having a discussion is all.
He is more talented than the US peloton. Period. He got 4th in the TDF. Phil Gaimon, Chad Haga and whoever else named will not. You can argue and make all of the really well thought out points all you want about that but that’s just how it is going to be in the end.
He makes the domestic pros look like little bitches because that’s what he does. Those little “bitches” are better riders than me, but so what I’m not jilted or angry about it. I never tried to be or wanted to be a pro cyclist. From a cycling fan’s perspective it’s fun to watch him hand out a sound ass whooping when he’s on a good day.
It would be nice to get him out of the US peloton, I totally agree but he’s here until he gets busted or until domestic pro teams decide that he’s kryptonite. Both of these things I doubt will ever happen.
Chad,
USADA has no authority to open a case unless riders testify directly to USADA regarding behaviour that could lead to a ban on Mancebo.
USADA needs USAC to open the case because USAC, or the UCI has all the authority. If USAC didn’t permit doping/cheating they need something to prosecute him on anyway. Based on USAC’s history of permitting doping, my estimate is there would never be a case.
DO NOT GO TO USA Cycling. Contact USADA directly.
How would you catch anyone when there is no testing. As I understand, and correct me if I am wrong, only one National event was tested at in 2012, Nationals were tested at, in which non US racers do not compete. How in the world would you catch anyone with virtually no testing? This year may help, with more races being tested at, and Jame Carney’s program for riding clean. But we, sponsors and races need to support that program financially so more testing, and more deterrence occurs.
2wheeldeal ,
The reason why is the UCI and USAC’s leaders like the results of doping.
And while I too believe an athlete should be banned for admitting, it sets up a bind where no athlete would ever admit.
IMHO, the compromise is a varying-length ban from competing, and a lifetime ban officially working inside the sport. But, both the UCI and the IOC would not like this. Both organizations are full of scoundrels.
“You don’t have to make a personal jab at me, I’m not doing that to you.”- ok fair enough. I apologize. You might want consider whether you should so casually make a blanket statement about domestic racers though.
” I’m saying this from the perspective of someone who’s been a cycling fan for 20 years and seen a lot.”- well to love hear about how much you’ve seen as a fan.
Paco is the #1 tested rider in the US. He gets tested out of competition throughout the year (they even tested him in Spain) and when he wins the big races. They usually test the winner and one or two randoms. If he was really doping still, he would be destroying the US domestic peloton even more, they just can’t hang. Put him up to the Euro teams (Tour of Utah) he can’t hang and its obvious where his level is.
Why is he in the US? because he CAN win with less training and no drugs because the competition is lower tier. How many US riders went pro tour last year? A handful. (Few bontrager, Rory, etc)
Who knows his TRUE history but I think he is clean now.
I’m sure that those 20 bags were in storage just because he might be attacked by vampires.
One can never be too safe.
As for him racing now, everybody knows that since they caught the big Tuna, cycling is clean now.
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.
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It truly amazing the lack of information it seems people have on topic.
1) the graphic shown make statements not actually known to be true, yet the writer as well many of you are using it to make your points valid. What happened to innocent until proven guilty.
2) From I have read about cost of Doping and the salaries of Domestic riders Mancebo is not making enough money to afford the cost of doping
3) Has anyone that was still racing admitted to doping that was not under active investigation or subpena?
4) Chad, Everyone has a choice. If these guys thought it was an issue or believed he was doing anything wrong they could have walked. And if the response was “if they walked they would have lost their job and maybe career”, From what I have read about the Pro teams 10 years ago that was the same thing riders faced for not following the program..
5) Also from conversions I have had with USAC, the teams including On the rivet pushed for and then put money to increase USADA testing at NRC events.
But Hey…I am just a dumbcyclist
It was also sad to meet Oscar Sevilla outside Bogota on a training ride in EPM-Une racing kit. Why would they hire that guy? Why not give the spot to a young talented Colombian? I just don’t get it…
The #1 most tested rider LOL. What does that have to do with anything? Testing doesn’t catch dopers. Have we not learned anything? I’ll tell you why Goku is in the U.S. Because we have a bunch of dumbshits who say wow he got 4th in the TDF, and now he’s over here racing, he can win some races so let’s put him on our team. Stop it. Please.
You obviously have way too much faith in the On the Rivet management team. They have such a boner for Paco it’s ridiculous. They drove Backcountry.com / Competitive Cyclist out of the sport in a matter of 2 years. There was huge potential there for a long term sponsor and the rednecks from Georgia blew it! They don’t give two shits about ethics or clean racing, they just love Paco winning races.
In fairness to Paco, his career did take a big hit from Puerto whether he was sanctioned or not. He is racing now because he loves racing bikes and this is the highest level that will allow him to compete. He’s not on the big time juice anymore but the residual fitness gained from years of EPO and transfusions certainly isn’t hurting him now!
On the positive side….it is nice that all the dopers have sponsors (or should we call them ENABLERS) on their jerseys SO WE KNOW WHO TO BOYCOTT…
Competitive Cyclist
Department of Goods
Dog Funk
Chainlove
Steep and Cheap
Backcountry
one big PED enabling family….
Steve, I am far from sure he’s doping now. And I don’t really give a damn, what he did in the past. He has not been sanctioned, and hasn’t tested positive. You can’t just take someones life away, because you don’t like who you think they used to be. His results here, are exactly what you would expect, from a former Euro-Pro. And he isn’t doing other worldly races. He’s up and down, just like every other rider in the peloton. I suppose you hate Roberto Gaggioli too. I mean he must have cheated, his wife at the time did. And he won a stupid number of races over here. I’m tired of the holier than thou rhetoric. People can make mistakes, and it doesn’t make them bad people. Some maybe, but not all. I guess we should just use a line, from long ago. “Off with their heads”
Right on toms53. Boycott people and companies. Fondo’s and bed & b-fasts. The bottom line is that even if you doped at some time in your career, it has forever changed your level of performance. I think that lifetime bans should become policy. I didn’t use’t to think that. I really don’t want to read about L, L, C, G, T, and anybody else. jim d
oh no!! another pro on drugs.. Q. what pro since eddy m raced clean? A. none!
9 out of 10 of your posts are on drugs steve. why?
Just wait..next Mancebo will be starting up a training camp where we all can attend and ride with him for 10,000 dollars.
Why would anyone hire Mancebo is a good question. I wondered the same thing when I saw DiLuca’s name on the Giro start list. He’s been caught two (or three?) times now. The sport is jacked.
I’m starting to think cycling might as well legalize doping. Kind of like prostitution in Amsterdam. There may be a better chance in managing it, if it were legal.
Jim D. All research shows just the opposite for blood doping, which is what we are discussing here. Do some research.
Also, Mancebo just got third at Gila behind Gaimon. If Mancebo is doping then resaon would say Gaimon would have to be doping as well. Call Meyerson to come cut off the tatto. We have no proof and none is needed, but what the hell it just sounds like fun to skin a guy.
Lastly, is it possible to have that many bags.(20) i did a little research and the blood has a short shelf life.(40 days, plasma 1 year) so looking at just the blood it would have been impossible for all that to be one persons. Another sign that the data given is possibly flawed. But lets not let facts get in the way. Skin him!
The point isn’t “off with their heads,” it’s “off with their cycling credentials.” If he wants to raise a family in South Dakota and go fly fishing on the weekend that’d be just fine as long as he’s a banker, a plumber, or anything as long as it’s outside the sport of cycling.
DumbCyclist?, you sound a whole lot smarter than most of the posters here.
don’t even know why i waste my time but……
“Lastly, is it possible to have that many bags.(20) i did a little research and the blood has a short shelf life.(40 days, plasma 1 year) so looking at just the blood it would have been impossible for all that to be one persons. Another sign that the data given is possibly flawed. But lets not let facts get in the way. Skin him!”
please google “operation puerto siberia freezer” and get back to us. ok, since you may not even be able to comprehend that, Dr Fuentes purchased an expensive a$$ freezer, so that everyone could essentially store their blood indefinitely (for our intents and purposes, the timeline of fresh-frozen blood is basically “indefinite”). thus, it WOULD be possible for someone to store nearly a whole friggin season’s worth of blood, esp if they banked like a madman in the offseason. school is over now, you’re welcome.
dumbER cyclista~
Jordan where are you from sir ?
Light reading on using the best tech in the world on blood storage. For those who do not want to read. 30 – 40 days before red blood cells are to broken down to be useful or safe. If other info is out there please post.
http://newhealthsciences.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/zimrin-and-hess.pdf
DumbCyclist-Are you arguing that over there in Spain, there aren’t 20 bags of blood with someone’s name on them, that many have identified as Mancebo’s blood? Operation Puerto is not a made up deal. Over 1/2 the guys on the list have confessed or have been suspended already. The doctors involved admitted to doing the procedures, but for medical reasons, not sport fraud reasons. So, let’s not keep addressing the issue whether the evidence is valueless to an athlete. Do you know anybody that has a couple extra bags of their own blood laying around? I think, and hope, not.
If any of you were ever good enough, to be offered a Pro Tour contract in Europe, and all you had to do, was the same thing everyone else in Europe was doing. And you turned it down. You’re an idiot. Cheating against a bunch of people who are clean, VERY BAD!. Cheating against a bunch of people who are all cheating, NOT THE SAME THING!. I applaud your moral values Steve. But look around you at the world you live in. Morals left a long time ago. And if you were just as outraged, about the other moral injustice in the world, maybe i’d like it a lot more. But we have politicians breaking laws, and they can still be politicians. The President got a blow job in the White House, and he still kept his job, his pension, and his secret service detail for life. Lance did just exactly what Americans expected of him, HE WON!. And now you and everybody else, with this holier than thou attitude, want to crucify him, destroy him, erase him from life. All because he did the same thing everyone in Europe was doing. And now you’re trying to get people to hate Mancebo, because he was linked to Puerto. But if not enough evidence exists to sanction him, how can you condone your actions. Just because you think someone’s guilty, is not supposed to be enough to convict them. Somebody says it’s his blood?. I could say you’re a pedophile. But that doesn’t mean you are. Just because it’s been common for cyclists to blood dope, doesn’t mean he’s guilty. Maybe he is. But I don’t want to try and ruin someones life, on a maybe. And nobody on this blog should either. Doping in cycling, is like blood in the water. And it brings out the sharks. And anybody that’s seen a bunch of sharks in a frenzy, knows they don’t think. They just rip and tear and mutilate. Why don’t you people stop acting like sharks, and act human for a change.
So how did his name end up on the list?
My argument is:
Why crucify a guy when there is no evidence outside of what is, as of now, circumstantial at best. When I can not (with little knowledge of actually evidence) line up what is being said as fact with what I know of a subject as being fact…then I get real nervous about casting stones.
I also ask what is a guy to do? You make a mistake, one that I speculate (we know it has happened to to others) where the team puts pressure upon you to do the wrong thing.
Seems easy from my desk to say turn your self in, take your 2 years like a man. (I hope that is the course of action I would take). Or ( as it seems to me) what Mancebo has done; stop the behavior, put you head down, work hard, let people say what they will accepting it as part of the price for your misdeed, and hope some day people will give you a second chance.
I believe that Mancebo is good for USA cycling. For guys who want to go race in Europe to have access and see his tactics on the road. I believe you have to race against great competition in order to become great, and lets face it American racing is lacking in that area. I think it would be great to have Pro tour quality guys to come back to USA when they “retire” for a couple of season and bring that knowledge, power and speed into the peleton. Many may disagree!
Even if he is not still cheating all his success is still to some degree built on his years doping as it allowed him to train harder, recover more quickly and race at a higher level than would otherwise be. That advantage is still part of his physcial profile. Hence he has an unfair advantage to this day over those who never cheated.
As in any crime, it all boils down to how much evidence do you need. I’m guessing you’d need a confession. For me, either he’s guilty or someone’s trying to frame him and I have a really hard time imagining the latter. I wonder how surprised you were when Lance admitted it.
Whether he’s a bad person or not is something that always seems to creep into these arguments, but it’s a separate issue.
The real question is should he and others like him be racing bikes, and I think that boils down to your stance on drugs in the first place. People who defend folks like Mancebo tend to think that cheating is ok for one or more of a variety of false reasons- everyone’s doing it, what’s the harm, you HAVE to- and giving a pass to dopers perpetuates that attitude.
While you are at it might as well boycott every sponsor ever in the history of cycling. Its obvious Backcountry didnt want to stick around in the “dopers” game so they bailed. Unlike several others.
“Whether he’s a bad person or not is something that always seems to creep into these arguments, but it’s a separate issue. ”
On that note, Mancebo is a sweetheart. I have talked to him several times at various races and he is super nice. I don’t think doping has anything to do with how nice you are, it was common for the times. George, Dave etc. all super nice guys that made bad choices.
Whats done is done, lets ride bikes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_doping_cases_in_cycling
damn!! every pro cheats. i think every pro that ever raced since the 1800’s is on this list here.. lie their whole 10 year career, then when they retire, admit they cheated for 10 years, then write a book about it.. loosers..
Roberto, there are a whole lot of crooked bankers on Wall Street, who’d like people to just “move on” and let them keep their ill-gotten gains, and they still want to stay in the game to make even more money. In a just government which enforced the laws, they’d be sitting down in individual suites at Fort Jefferson in the Dry Tortugas for ten or fifteen years; instead, their cronies occupy high governmental office and their theft continues unabated. Now, doping in bicycle races is nothing like mortgage fraud or selling spurious investments and then shorting them, but it does have its victims – people like Greg Lemond and Steve, and all the other riders who raced clean. The criminals on Wall Street should be forced to recompense their victims, even though it means that they’ll wind up penniless and unemployable – and so should the criminals who stole races and prize and sponsorship money.
Steve, this is a free market unregulated society. Sponsors are free to pursue whatever suits their shareholder fancy. Read “The Banker’s New Clothes” for another example.
1)What happened to innocent until proven guilty.
It left with the UCI and USAC’s corruption. example,Tammy Thomas, Armstrong.
2) From I have read about cost of Doping and the salaries of Domestic riders Mancebo is not making enough money to afford the cost of doping
You haven’t read enough. David Anthony, Gran Fondo NY, Kirk OBee.
3) Has anyone that was still racing admitted to doping that was not under active investigation or subpena?
You are so sure of your opinions, why bother asking? It’s called an AAF.
4) Chad, Everyone has a choice.
Uncontrolled human experimentation is a choice now? Let’s do it on kids while you are endorsing it. Still “a choice?” How about doping your kid? Is it still “a choice?” C’mon tough guy. What’s in the first syringe you are injecting into your kid?
5) Also from conversions I have had with USAC, the teams including On the rivet pushed for and then put money to increase USADA testing at NRC events.
That means what exactly? Never tested positive is not the same as a clean rider.
Paco is the #1 tested rider in the US. He gets tested out of competition throughout the year
Domestic is covering for someone. Paco was NOT the most tested rider in 2012. You guys making stuff up should realize the data is posted for 2012.
This is exactly the problem, Steve. Frankie does not own the team, he is not its management. He has said the problem of Puerto has to be dealt with and that it is important to deal with the past. Frankie’s strong anti-doping stance has cost us greatly. Questions like this should definitely be asked but of the people who actually make the financial decisions regarding their riders. I’ve put my family through a lot of financial turmoil by speaking up and out against doping and the problems of the sport. We’ve always tried and continue to try to be part of the solution and advocates of clean sport. I am hopeful that this stance won’t cost Frankie any more loss of jobs in cycling.
Betsy, I don’t know if you have ever ridden a bike but you are one of my cycling heroes. Thanks for never giving up.
Fight the good fight Steve. EVERYTIME I see Mancebo race, I think “DOPER”. He is a joke to cycling, like Danielson, Hincapie, Lance, and the countless others. Once busted, always busted. These dopers are killing the grassroots projects; maybe not in quantity, but in quality. if a super athletic kid, why not choose another sport that pays much more and you don’t have to dope to succeed. in cycling, you have to dope. still. internationally, maybe the kids are picking soccer (football) over cycling. I would. all that money, time, etc…and you lose to a doper. that would, and did for me, get old. fast.
“We know that if riders want to dope, there are ways to do it without ever testing positive.”
Who was that guy who went for years without ever being tested positive? You know…. The guy who orchestrated the biggest doping scandal ever seen in cycling….. you know….. The guy who denied doing anything wrong for years… What’s his name? ………. The guy who still hasn’t admitted anything, yet is trying to position himself as some kind of expert who’s trying clean up the sport…….That American chappie…. That’s it……. Lance, innit?