Ride with Christian and George 10K

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I am going to try to not make this a post on doping in the cycling. I want it to address the question of the human thought process and mentality towards things that seem very similar, but the reactions to them are vastly different.

I got an email with the picture below of a training camp that Christian Vande Velde is doing in Rancho Santa Fe next January. He and George Hincapie are doing a 5 day, ride camp from some spa in Rancho and asking people to pay $10000 to do it with them. The flyer says, Train Alongside The Best Cyclists In The World. I personally think that is false advertising, but whatever.

Then a little while ago, Velopress released a new book about core strength by Tom Danielson. The book is really by Allison Westfahl, with a forword by the actor Patrick Dempsey. So, I guess they were just using Tom as a figurehead, I don’t know.

Anyway, it sort of amazing to me how public these guys are, doing the same old stuff, hardly a stub on their toe, freshly off a 6 month, wrist slapping, suspensions for doping, thus cheating.

And everyone seems to just go along with it. Obviously, Velonews is condoning the whole thing, publishing “Tom’s book” less than two months from his time out. The other sponsors of the VDV camp, Skratch Labs and Giro must think all is great.

What I don’t understand is how forgiving the fans and sponsors are for doping when I can give you examples of other things, that seem nearly exactly the same, and the public and sponsors disappear immediately.

Let’s use music as an example. I believe that people have the same sort of fascination and loyalty towards musicians as they do sport figures. Maybe even more. I don’t seem many people waking around with Lance Armstrong tatted on their forearms, but I’ve seen maybe people with Grateful Dead written in block letters across their whole backs.

But, when a musician or group is found out to be frauds, they are outcasts forever. Use Milli Vanilli as an example. Number one hit after number one hit. Then, they were found to have been lip-synching and boom, done. Nothing left. Fab and Rob could sing and had talent. They even recorded music after they were shamed, but the fans had vanished. Rob was so despondent that he turned to burglary and drugs, eventually dying from an accidental overdose.

It’s the same in the art world. Art sometimes goes for millions upon millions of dollars. Art fans and critics spend nearly their whole lives involved in the appreciation and collecting. But sometimes it is very hard to tell the difference between the work of a true master and a forger, nearly impossible. The real art is worth millions and the fake, nothing. If it is so close to being the real thing, then shouldn’t they be worth the same? No, I guess not, because one is real and the other isn’t.

But in cycling, the lip-synchers, and forgers don’t seem to miss a beat. Cycling fans seem to assume that their heros naturally had/have talent and that the drugs were just a small blip, something that was nearly forced upon them, and they are forgiven. I really don’t understand the difference in mentality.

All the examples don’t seem that dissimilar, yet the reaction to them are vastly different. Are sport fans and sponsors just that much more forgiving, understanding? Is it a different area of the brain that deals with betrayal and loyalty concerning athletics compared to music or art? I’m just throwing this out there, I don’t have an answer. It is so perplexing to me.

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54 thoughts on “Ride with Christian and George 10K

  1. channel_zero

    Steve,

    When are you going stop letting those pesky ethics get in the way of monetizing cycling? You could do something similar and charge MORE because you are an actual champion, many times over.

    Consistent with other comments I’ve made on the topic, not testing positive has become part of the challenge in the game.

    Bottom line, I bet they get a couple of fans at $10,000. I also bet they break even after the first customer. Doping doesn’t matter to those customers. Most of them very likely cheated their way to being able to afford throwing $10,000 down for a weekend.

     
  2. owen

    its bullshit they’re still trying to profit off a career built on doping.

    boycott all their supporters.

     
  3. Wildcat

    Steve, interesting thoughts! One thing that came into my mind as I was reading was – Even though I have raced bicycles some in my life and also still ride weekly – if I started doping today would I be able to win the tour this summer? Heck, it would likely take me all day to finish one stage. Those guys cheated and I get that, but just like in baseball – even though you’re juiced, you still gotta be able to hit a 100mph fastball.

     
  4. Anton

    Only $10,000 to be great ? Some would be willing to pay $20,000 to be double great. But I think EPO is cheaper than these camps.

     
  5. scott Hembree

    “That’s a BINGO!” (love that movie) The camp is obviously for knuckle heads with more dollars than sense. You won’t find sober minded conscientious competitors present.

     
  6. TJ

    Wonder if the price includes 1 starter vial of EPO, with Lessons on how to microdose!? kidding
    But…The sad thing is people will pay to do this.

    Too bad these guys weren’t really remorseful and decided to get out of the spotlight! I guess it isn’t embarrassing to have cheated. Times and morals have changed.

     
  7. scott

    it’s perplexing, for sure. you’d think that these cheats would have the sense to understand that they’re lucky to be allowed to “just go away”, taking their ill earned loot with them. the reality is apparently otherwise – the very nature of their past behavior is indicative of the inability to “get it”. and it’s not just the dopers. we need only look at fallen politicians, religious leaders, etc. as examples. mind boggling!

     
  8. Rad Renner

    The differences in how we perceive similar things are often very difficult to understand. The dilemma which Steve pointed out brought to mind something from my college Rhetoric classes, a methodology (one among many, but well known) for revealing some of the ways in which we view “things”. Toulmin’s “model of argument” (it must be understood that to most rhetoricians, EVERYTHING [i.e.- everything we construct or communicate] is an “argument”). It’s too lengthy to get into on a blog post, but for anyone who might be interested, see http://web.cn.edu/kwheeler/documents/Toulmin.pdf

     
  9. Robert E

    Some venture capitalists casting a net. The money is the only thing they care about. Im sure there will be some suckers who will ante up.

     
  10. 1speed

    Steve – I take your point, but I think there is a disconnect here between your non-cycling examples and the subject. I don’t really think these are comparable. In the case of Milli Vanilli, I think what’s missing is the development. Those two originally tried to make it on their own talent and couldn’t hack it. They had a look, but not the singing skills to stand out on their own. So Milli Vanilli was manufactured and they benefited as part of the ruse. Once that ruse was exposed, they still couldn’t sing — the reason their subsequent attempt failed may have had somethign to do with a backlash, but it was essentially that they just didn’t have the talent to succeed at the level they formerly “achieved”. But they were given a chance, weren’t they? They did make an album and they were given a chance to sing on Arsenio Hall’s show, and the consensus was that just weren’t good enough to make it on their own. The same could happen for these cyclists unless they prove they can at least stay int he pack on their own. I totally agree with you that Danielson havig a book on core training methodologies is kind of a joke — at least the timing of it is. If he were to come back and have success and could prove that success was hard won now and not the result of doping, then I’d say, sure, let him “write” a book about his fitness regimen. But i htink the only issue here is in the timing of this book’s release. It feels like a fraud until he proves he can make it on his own drug-free. If he can’t then he deserves to fail liek Milli Vanilli failed. But just like they had a chance to make it and didn’t, he should be gvien the chance to compete clean and if he can make it, great. If not, he should sink into obscurity as a fraud the way they did.

    And as for the art analogy, I think the value int he original is always precisely that — its originality. Art is so subjective that the only real value in any art is its uniqueness of original vision. A forgery by design completely lacks that originality. These cyclists could prove that their efforts and skills are original and that the doping was an enhancer of something real as opposed to a substitute for something not there. If it turns out that’s not the case, then they should be considered complete forgeries of real cyclists. But again it’s about having that chance. I also agree that the timing of a camp that costs $10K to ride with admitted dopers is laughable — they would both need to prove that they are worth that money on their own. I don’t want to learn training techniques from someone who needed to cheat to be competitive. But if they showed that the talent is original and the advice works, then I’d say, sure, charge what the market will bear. But it needs to be real. And they haven’t had time to prove that (and Hincapie never will now that he’s retired.)

    In short, I don’t think there is as big a difference in the way the world will respond to them if they prove themselves similar to Milli Vanilli or to art forgeries once the enhancing aspect of the drugs are gone. If the skill isn’t there, they will disappear into the same obscurity and be considered a valueless investment.

     
  11. channel_zero

    It’s easy to call the people throwing their money away knuckle heads. The problem is, they will probably get the money and will be laughing at the doping moral majority all the way to the bank.

    Per another comment, the athletes are not apologetic in the least for doping, and are likely pretending they would have had an elite career with/without the doping. As long as there is money to be made, the people that run the sport (hello, Thom Wiesel) and the doped athletes just don’t care.

    I don’t have a good answer for fixing the matter, but don’t just discard scams like this.

     
  12. channel_zero

    Check out what Floyd Landis has said about Allen Lim (skratch labs). Allen Lim’s rice cakes and beet juice just MIGHT not be the reason some of his elite athletes have done so well in the past.

     
  13. Bri

    I think that CVV and George should pay money to ride with real cyclist that actually go out and ride/race, pay for travel expenses, race fees..etc. They might learn some things about how not to lie, cheat and why real cyclist love the sport.

     
  14. Jack Sparks III

    they are going to be riding on open roads

    scout out their route, tag along and try to get a workout

    fk it thats better than spending ten bags to ride for less than a wk

     
  15. GIANT

    Steve Tilford, Ride Clean Camp, no tools allowed. $300 bucks, some long rides in the kansas countryside. campsite, fire pit included, beer and food additional expense. Come drink some beer and eat a hamburger with Steve Tilford. Not a bad idea…….

     
  16. Joe

    That is pretty sleazy. You wonder how they can look at themselves in the mirror. I think some people are better able to compartmentalize their brains to distance themselves from their misdeeds. I have never had that aptitude. I like the attitude attributed to Scott Mercier who, looking at the big picture, said after the dust had settled he felt like HE was the winner in the whole deal.

     
  17. channel_zero

    Bri,

    These dopers would argue “real” riders pay $10 large. Thom Wiesel would too. This is the direction cycling has been heading for a long time now.

    I’d make Steve’s camp $5000. The attendees paid that much for gear, what’s another $5000? Cycling appears to be the new golf.

     
  18. VCScribe

    Steve, why don’t we all shoot them an email and inquire just who the greats are that customers will be riding, dining and learning (from) with . . .

     
  19. JR

    channel_zero: That’s quite the accusation you throw out there. The people who may (we don’t know if there will even be any takers for this camp) attend “likely” cheated to earn their $10,000?
    The vast, vast majority of Americans are honest & decent folk. I think you are wrong with that flippant accusation. My 2 cents.

     
  20. Bobby

    Yeah, here in Colorado its pretty bad. One of the local racing teams hosted a clinic/fun ride a few months back with Tom Danielson, who was promoting his new book. Of course he was on suspension at the time. Don’t know what the turn-out was like, but I know it made me sick! Also disappointing that an amateur racing team would associate themselves with and promote Tom Danielson.

    The second person here in Colorado that people seem to idolize is Allen Lim. The testimony is there from Floyd Landis (and others) stating that Allen Lim assisted him with his doping regime. I am sure “Doctor” Lim ‘s contribution to the Radio Shack team with their “training” and “race preparation” surely ranged beyond preparing rice cakes for the racers. The guy has a dirty track record.

    But, of course, that doesn’t stop people from falling for his bullcrap and going out and buying his cookbook and his Scratch labs hokey drink mix. People around the country seem to think this guy is such a cool and authoritative expert on Cycling training and nutrition. As P.T. Barnum has said, “. . .sucker is born every day.”

    The third Doping related wanker that people here in Colorado (and worldwide) seem to idolize is Chris Carmichael. I’m sure most who read this blog know his story about proporting to be Lance Armstrong’s trainer and guiding him to his Tour wins. What really irks me about Carmichael is that he has the gall to get out the second edition of his “training for the time crunched cyclist” book sometime in 2012 and includes a long BS story about how he trained Lance Armstrong and touting Lance Armstrong’s exploits. At the time that book was released, Armstrong was already implicated by the USADA. Guess Chris couldn’t resist one last use of Lance’s name before the big fall.

    That guy has no moral backbone whatsoever. But, you know what. Cyclists pay big money for the Carmichael training systems epic ride experiences, their training programs and their coaching services. I’d say he is another one who has profited handsomely from his doping ties.

    Funny, Velo News is and was constantly promoting all three of these cycling “entrepreneurs”, Danielson, Lim and Carmichael. What a fine organization, magazine and website that is.

    But of course, the cycling public are the ones who support these losers and stooges. Hopefully some day they (the public) actually support real cycling businesses and stop keeping these doping related frauds doing what they are doing.

     
  21. chris

    The rooms at that dump run $675-$1175 per night. I can just see the housekeeping maids wondering what the duct tape stuck up on the walls was all about.

     
  22. scott Hembree

    Right on the money TJ. Not to begin a whole nuther thread but the moral fabric of American culture has weakened.

     
  23. john

    I don’t know – a lot of people love the bad boys – especially in music and art and in many of the sports. And it might be true in Cycling?
    John

     
  24. Bill K

    It would be funny as hell if Armstrong signed up for the camp. He could also pay for Floyd.
    .
    .

     
  25. James

    Looks like Hincapie finally put on that few extra pounds he was needing. He always looked like a nasty skeleton around tour time every year……

     
  26. H Luce

    People could always come to Topeka and do the rides on Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays absolutely for free, and they’d get training tips and suchlike from Steve and the other riders, three or four of whom are National Champions…. and clean.

     
  27. Joe

    I happened to hook up with a rider the other day, started spontaneously trading pace but then got into a riveting discussion and rode in two abrest, chatting for miles. He used to share a house with Tyler Hamilton, after Tyler’s book came out but before the Lance Oprah spectacle. He shot the breeze with Tyler on many occasions, and what he said floored even jaded old me. Caveat – this is third hand, but Tyler apparently maintained that this squeaky clean generation of new, young American riders that are starting to make waves in Europe are just as dirty as the riders of 10-15 years ago. He said the packaging has changed, but that underneath it was the same old story. So at this point I don’t even know which way is up I am so confused….

     
  28. james

    I think you’re overstating the idea that people are forgiving george/vdv et.al. As another commenter noted, it’s an issue of money and how much the investors think they can make. If anything, I see the shunning of disgraced professional cyclists as as significantly more harsh than in other sports. While the Roger Clemmens’ of the world are certainly vilified, vast other lesser players in major league sports have been given a pass by their fan bases – Rodney Harrison is a prime example. Contrast that to the vitriol against pretty much every former member of USPS. The marketing types may still be trying to make a buck off of their slowly rotting carcasses. but most cycling fans are having none of it.

     
  29. dave king

    Who are the “others” who implicated Allen Lim? Did you notice that Floyd’s sworn affidavit to USADA said nothing about Allen? How do you explain that?

     
  30. Spencer Martin

    I understand that these guys have served suspensions for the ways in which they choose to maximize their performance and exposure but I’m not quite sure why some of you expect them to just ‘go away.’ If they still have enough fans willing to pay money to ride with them for a week good for them. Who am I to get in the way of them making money? After all thats what sports are all about, a platform to gain fans, which hopefully later you are able to monetize, based on your performance and personality. The way cycling is set up now doping seems to be on the table as far as advancing your career, getting caught just isn’t a big enough hit to your earning potential. Right or wrong thats just how it is. They are both very good riders who have made huge sacrifices over the years and played the game well enough to be able to demand that type of money. I’ve worked a couple luxury camps more that were actually more expensive than this one and they are a great time and totally worth it if you can afford it. Most people can’t and it seems like a ridiculous expense to most of us but if some people have worked hard and smart enough to afford it good for them. It can be sad and frustrating to see ‘cheaters’ benefiting but that is just part of the game in professional sports (let’s not pretend cycling is the only sport with a doping problem),

     
  31. Inga Thompson

    @ Spencer Martin: Given this logic, I should hire a Stock Broker than has committed insider trader, banned by the SEC. This guy would really know the inside track of how to make money for me. And I wouldn’t suffer any repercussions because I will tell him to not ever tell me how he ‘knows so much’. Just invest my money, make me money, I don’t care how you do it, just do it. Obviously, this man has paid his dues. He’s gone to school, put in his time on Wall Street, developed his contacts that will give him the ‘goods’. He’s invested everything into getting to where he is. I believe I should support this guy with my investment, even thought the SEC has taken away his license????? Really???? I could draw a few more analogies to ex-Dopers/Drug Dealers coaching our children. Maybe your child?

     
  32. Spencer Martin

    That happens all the time. These guys aren’t doing anything against the rules by hosting this camp. Also the majority of directors in pro cycling are former dopers. Does it affect their ability do to their job, probably not. Is it entirely ethical? Thats up for debate. Most importantly it’s the reality of the sport right now.

     
  33. The Cyclist

    ToTaLLy agrEE. iT’s The goDDamned heLLmets. eVeryThinG stArted going to heLL wHen the pr0s got Forced to weAr HELLmets. noW it’$ ALL golf anD hellMETS.

     
  34. Bobby

    Actually, the Landis affidavit to the USADA, statement numbers 51 and 52 stated that Landis swore to his 4/30/10 e-mail to Steve Johnson of USAC detailing his knowledge of doping in professional cycling. Those statements added that e-mail to the sworn testimony to the USADA. That 4/30/10 e-mail to Steve Johnson states,

    “2005: I (Landis) had learned at this point how to do most of the transfusion technicals and other things on my own so I hired Allen Lim as my assistant to help with the details and logistics. He helped Levi Leipheimer and I prepare the transfusions and made sure they were kept at the proper temperature. . . .”

    The consensus view is that Lim was also indicated in additional sworn affidavits to the USADA as one of the “Other” names that was “blacked out” to the general public.

     
  35. Mark Kunnecke

    Steve I respect you very much, and I was proud to say I was lapped by you at the cyclocross national championship race in Portland (what ever year that was). But as a musician I have to say comparing drug by musicians and athletes is like comparing apples and pine cones.

     
  36. Kathy W

    Clara tested positive for PED in 1994, yet seems to be one of the athletes that did a true turn around.

     
  37. scott Hembree

    Huh!? That was not the comparison. Respect Steve enough to read the article please. It was the real versus the imposteur! Read it and see please.

     
  38. trounder

    @Tilford- I was intrigued by the comparisons you attempted to make here between cheating in sport, pantomiming in popular music, and forgery in visual art. It is no small feat to paint these topics with broad strokes, but you have managed to do so. You have also expressed your sense of bewilderment quite thoroughly. Despite, or perhaps because of this, I tend to agree with your premise and your conclusion that the human thought process is perplexing. So there you go.

    @Inga- Criminal conduct (insider trading, drug dealing) and merely unethical conduct (cheating, fake singing) can elicit similar scales of emotional response among the broader public, but civics and ethics are not exactly the same thing. As such, it makes sense to me that the penalties for breaking rules of law are different from the penalties for breaking rules of sport. A stock broker has a fiduciary obligation that is defined by federal securities law, whereas a PRO cyclist may only be contractually obligated to a similar standard in his chosen profession. Among other intentions, the remedies for breaking a rule of law are meant to protect the citizenry. Remedies for breaking a contract apply discreetly to affected parties. It’s all quite perplexing, but here’s the take away: corrupt licensed stock broker is to an apple, as corrupt licensed cyclist is to an orange.

    A lifetime ban from “all things cycling” – including book deals and training rides – just doesn’t exist. Maybe it would be a strong deterrent against cheating, but in general I’m of the opinion that it is better to let a market dictate how a person should earn a living, rather than a queen in a castle or an angry mob.

    Back @Tilford-
    To answer the question you pose about forgiveness, it has nothing to do with sports, music, or painting. Some people have the ability to forgive and forget, while others prefer to hold a grudge. I can’t tell you if it has genetic origins, but something tells me forgiveness is a learned behavior.

    Since the fanatic’s heart is full of passion, I think it is reasonable to frame the athlete’s path to redemption (or their worthiness of forgiveness) in the dispassionate terms of economic impact. How quickly they are accepted back into the bosom of the sport, is directly proportional to the effect that their tainted reputation has on corporate sponsorship. This is probably quantifiable, but I’m not going to get into it. Suffice it to say, Nike, Oakley, Livestrong, et al did the economically prudent thing by dropping Lance. Similarly, it will be a long time before his brand is cleansed enough to re-enter competitive sport, if ever (see Vince Young for a high-profile example of the required cooling off period).

    Outside of a small circle of folks, these three former dopers don’t really register on the public’s outrage-o-meter. The ab workout book and the fancy group ride may seem cringe-worthy to some, but in my opinion this is small potatoes. It’s no surprise that they are “getting away with it” so to speak.

    One last point to remember, these guys testified. They came clean. Floyd came clean. Tyler came clean. Others did as well. You might say “but they had to testify” or “but they got caught” which is true enough. But they did cooperate with a ground breaking anti-doping investigation, and they took the medicine that the Rules provided. And now, they are where they are. Time served. Consider this, Lance would be at the Ironman this year if he had played ball with USADA. He chose a different path.

    The “slap on the wrist” might not mean anything to those who hold grudges, but it means something to those who have a forgiving nature. It means they helped to clean up the sport that they, and many others have poisoned for decades.

    Could they have not doped? Of course. Did the rules eventually apply to them? Yes. Will their future actions and legacy ultimately leave the sport better than they found it? Time will tell.

     
  39. Inga Thompson

    @ Trounder Thank you for the verbose response. I especially enjoyed your spanking me for comparing apples and oranges while you compared my asking for stiffer penalties as a queen ruling in the castle. I am simply one person brave enough to state the obvious. We need stiffer penalties.

    Your saying that I don’t have forgiveness is way off the mark, jumping to an erroneous conclusion because I am brave enough to speak up about change. I have a ton of compassion for the fact that they lay awake at night with their guilt. They are paying the price. I have simply asked for stiffer penalties. Obviously, the current penalties are not working. Also, Why is there no penalties for the men that have orchestrated helping these riders dope? The system is way too lenient and the penalties need to be changed. This argument should not be about compassion, it should be about the policies that need to be changed. Criminal mentalities love to capitalize on people’s compassion/ignorance. Even the Dali Lama has lamented about wishing they would have fought long enough to have had time to ask for help from other countries. I do believe that man has tad bit of compassion, yet acknowledged the need to fight.

    Have you ever heard the term ‘Tough Love’? I believe it applies in the case of our sport.

    Face it, there has been a massive melt down because the current system of penalties isn’t working. Change is tough, but it needs to happen. It won’t happen until the current men in charge are replaced with clean, ethical, moral leaders. Leaders who are willing to fight it as the grass roots, up the ladder to the very top. Not allowing ex dopers to coach our children is a start at the bottom of the ladder. Taking out the guys at the top who have orchestrated this sham is the other tough step that needs to happen. Lance didn’t get there by himself. He had help.

    Yes, I’m a woman with an opinion. I’m also a parent that knows when to forgive and let go, when to put your foot down, saying ‘enough’ and when to know the difference. I am putting my foot down in this case. Apples and Oranges? I think not.

    Sincerely,

    A Woman without a castle.

     
  40. scott Hembree

    Go Inga GO!!!

    So many who have not come even close to having been victims of the cheating are so willing say so much about something they know about more as spectators than participants. Consider the source…

     
  41. scott Hembree

    Dear trounder (aka the guy who should just write his own blog rather than trying to use this as his soap box), This really is far less about a forgiving heart that it is about people simply failing to grasp the gravity of being a doper, a cheater and making millions off a lie. I have yet to see any of these guys ask forgiveness of all the riders who just packed it in thinking they were just not good enough to make the worlds team or olympic team while they were the coaches pet guinea pig. This of course led to a pro career, coaching staff position, great job in the industry, etc. etc. You really are just not getting it. Steve and Inga were there and saw it all first hand. Where were you? They deal with what really happened while you talk about lofty ideas. Come down to earth amigo.

     
  42. Nancy

    Levi testified too. He did the same process as VDV, Danielson and the others but he was fired by his team OMQS and he is still without a team or at least he is not racing and his next race is still unknown. It was the right decision to fire him. But the other guys are back and are going to the Giro because they were at the right place at that moment. I don’t think it is far to fire Levi knowing that the others are active and they still have their fame. Or I think it is fair that they should all go ways.

     
  43. scott Hembree

    Give me a break. They are a business. They are concerned with making a profit. It is the naive and misguided bike nuts who really need to be helped to understand that they are helping slow the progress of the change needed.

     
  44. scott Hembree

    They are a business. They are concerned with making a profit. It is the naive and misguided bike nuts who really need to be helped to understand that they are helping slow the progress of the change needed.

     
  45. Benotti69

    A bunch of guys admitting doping to USADA for most of their career and what did they get a slap on the wrist and a 6 month ban. Now they did aid the USADA in helping take down the biggest sporting fraud ever but to get to keep all their ill gotten gains is too much.

    Hardly an incentive not to juice.

     
  46. scott Hembree

    Yeah so the lesson is to keep a lower profile than Lance and don’t be a prick like Lance, don’t sue people like Lance or try to destroy them. Just be nice to people while doping.

     
  47. Skippy

    Rode with C vdv to the sign on at Tarvisio yesterday ! Not a shred of remorse for the 6mth holiday handed to him . Still the same smug smile on his face as he laughs at the farce that Cycle racing has become !
    Cost me no effort and can safely say i agree with those above who would expect him to pay , for the right to ride with Normal cyclists . Saw nothing about his riding that would justify parting with even ONE CENT !

     

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